Originally Posted by dilan155

i want posting it to show what's wrong with it,

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Shambling horror is bad because jagged horrors are weak. Again, low hp, low armor, low damage (the bleeding is largely wasted when all your jaggies ball up on one target, like they usually do, instead of spreading it around). Another waste of minion slots that could be used for stronger minions. They've also got some very bad anti-synergies with the minion cap and the soul reaping timer. Jagged Horrors should only be used in situations where the die-and-pop-back-up mechanic is so extremely useful that it outweighs all those shortcomings -- and that's prety rare.

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Shamblings are awesome, but they, too, are bomber minions, not "master" minions. Same as Bone, they offer bodies two per coprse, but on different timing schedulle.

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

I'm a big fan of Shambling Horrors... They're good because that mechanic means heavy AoE damage won't completely wipe your entire minion army like it can to normal minions.

Originally Posted by Chthon

Oh all right, since you asked for it:

1. Bone minions are bad because they are weak. Low hp. Low armor. Low damage. They waste some of your 10 slots that could be used for stronger minions. Bone minions only belong in bomber builds.

2. Shambling horror is bad because jagged horrors are weak. Again, low hp, low armor, low damage (the bleeding is largely wasted when all your jaggies ball up on one target, like they usually do, instead of spreading it around). Another waste of minion slots that could be used for stronger minions. They've also got some very bad anti-synergies with the minion cap and the soul reaping timer. Jagged Horrors should only be used in situations where the die-and-pop-back-up mechanic is so extremely useful that it outweighs all those shortcomings -- and that's prety rare.

3. Flesh Golem is a bad choice because it uses up your elite slot that would be better spent on Order of Undeath. There's nothing wrong with Fleshie per se; he's just not as good as OoU, and therefore shouldn't be used.
(Though I must note that Moloch sensibly recommends Fleshy for "newbie" players, since it's much harder to screw up than OoU, and someone who honestly thinks a build like this is good qualifies as a "newbie.")

4. No bone fiends. Thanks to their increased attack speed, bone fiends deal significantly more damage per second than any other non-elite minion and benefit more from any sort of damage buff (OoU, EBSofHonor, Barbs, MoP, etc.). Every minion master build should have fiends.

5. Three skillslots wasted by bringing four kinds of redundant melee minions. You're not gaining anything by having 4 different kinds of melee meatbags wandering around. In fact, you're losing out since bone minions and jagged horrors are flat out inferior to vampiric horrors. Drop both of those skills (and probably Fleshy too) and just summon more vamps.

6. Taste of Death is questionable outside a minion bomber build. There's other ways to self-heal that don't waste high-energy-cost minion flesh.

7. Verata's Sacrifice is junk. Has been junk ever since it got nerfed. Probably will stay junk forever knowing Izzy. It can't even come close to offsetting minions' natural degen, much less damage caused by monsters. Use Blood of the Master instead.

8. Need a self-heal to offset the life sac from BotM. Use Heal Area at 8 Healing Prayers.

9. Rotting Flesh isn't bad, but there's better options for doing direct damage, if that's what you want to do with that skillslot. EBSofHonor comes to mind as the best choice. If you really want disease, Signet of Infection is a better option, presuming you've got a source of bleeding on your team. (Jagged horrors, if I haven't convinced you to get rid of them.)

10. On a cramped bar, a rez skill can be replaced by a rez scroll. Even if you want to keep a rez skill, resurrect is a terrible choice. Use Rez Chant if you want a monk hard rez.

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

I still think they're good since they bypass the minion cap in a certain way. They become especially useful when used on multiple necs.

While the situation I brought up is uncommon, it's also a dangerous one - if you're going up against heavy AoE, the minions are gonna be the first to take it. Once they're all dead, then your team is gonna get smacked with it. AoE hurts very much in HM.

Originally Posted by Daft Shifty

OoU Minion Master.. its on wiki, give him the build and he shall be happy.... if not DEATH!!!!!

12chars

Originally Posted by Chthon

8. Need a self-heal to offset the life sac from BotM. Use Heal Area at 8 Healing Prayers.

Originally Posted by Chthon

It IS an anti-synergy. You just lost a whole bunch of "living" things, but got no soul reaping for them. And you just lost a whole bunch of healthy minions that you put a lot of energy into and haven't lived nearly long enough to justify their summoning cost. Only a truly fantastic cascade of death novas and dwaynas sorrow party healing, coupled with the low-cost minions that a minion bomber uses, can really even hope to offset that loss.

We've been over this elsewhere. You need to build around being able to function without monk support if you need to. Setting yourself up to totally collapse if your monk runs out of energy is a very good way to screw your team.

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Also, you self-suficiency has its charm but if your monk is so bad that aegis/prot spirit reduction will not make it easier for him to heal will definitelly run out of energy if all help he gets is your self heal then you will be spamming Heal areas and hoping for him to catch up anyway and hoping that other party members don't drop in party-wipe cascade.

Originally Posted by Chthon

Prot does not offset sac costs. Yes, it makes a monk failure less likely, but it doesn't do anything the fix the fundamental problem that you've set yourself for a cascading failure -- If your monk fails, then you will fail too, and the sudden, simultaneous loss of healing/prot from the monk and damage soak from the minions is almost certain to result in a party wipe. That's an unacceptable outcome.
Bringing prot reinforces the monk at the time he needs it least -- when he's up and running and handling the damage. Once things go south, an extra aegis or PS is not going to prevent more damage than you could soak by keeping the minions up better. It's far better to be prepared to soak that damage when your team really needs it -- when the monk has failed -- than when it's merely helpful but not necessary.

Also, newsflash: Monk prot is not the be-all, end-all of damage mitigation. When you can have frontliners and/or other midliners carrying SY, and you yourself can carry EBSofCourage for a 100% uptime 1/3 damage reducer at 0 spec (in addition to your self heal!), sacrificing a self-heal to spec for prot is silly.

Originally Posted by Chthon

Prot does not offset sac costs. Yes, it makes a monk failure less likely, but it doesn't do anything the fix the fundamental problem that you've set yourself for a cascading failure -- If your monk fails, then you will fail too, and the sudden, simultaneous loss of healing/prot from the monk and damage soak from the minions is almost certain to result in a party wipe. That's an unacceptable outcome.
Bringing prot reinforces the monk at the time he needs it least -- when he's up and running and handling the damage. Once things go south, an extra aegis or PS is not going to prevent more damage than you could soak by keeping the minions up better. It's far better to be prepared to soak that damage when your team really needs it -- when the monk has failed -- than when it's merely helpful but not necessary.

Originally Posted by Chthon

Also, newsflash: Monk prot is not the be-all, end-all of damage mitigation. When you can have frontliners and/or other midliners carrying SY, and you yourself can carry EBSofCourage for a 100% uptime 1/3 damage reducer at 0 spec (in addition to your self heal!), sacrificing a self-heal to spec for prot is silly.